Forum for residents of St Georges Park and Long Leys Road Lincoln

[john shipton]

As most residents are aware, Karl McCartney, the Conservative PPC for Lincoln, and his business associates, are hoping to use the West Common for flat horse racing. This is not point to point horse racing which has gone to the nearby Lincolnshire Showground where a race course has been built upon the land.
The return of flat horse racing will affect the whole of the Long Leys Road area, as well with the West End, and the city of Lincoln.
The original Carholme Race Course was abandoned in 1966 after having its final race. Point to Point horse racing took its place until 1991.
Mr McCartney has been invited to speak about his proposals at the Carholme Community Forum meeting next Tuesday. Members of the committee will be there and this includes representatives from the LLRA.
He has requested that he be given questions in writing in order to answer questions raised.
Councillor Karen Lee, one of our councillors serving at Lincoln City Council, has posted me questions sent to her so far.
These are...

1) What are the proposals about the infrastructure which will be needed to bring back horse racing to the West Common?

2) It is understood that for horse racing to be viable, 16 sessions are required with each session having 3 to 4 horse racing days making a possible total of 64 days per year. Is this correct, and if not, how many days are envisaged for horse racing?

3) If horse racing is approved, are you aware that number of horse racing days will affect retail, businesses, tourists and visitors, and those wishing to shop in the centre of Lincoln? For there will be traffic congestion bringing the city to a standstill!

4) You are claiming that Lincoln will become prosperous if horse racing comes back to the former Carholme Race Course? People beg to differ as the effect won't increase trade but will dimish it with with shops, firms, and companies shutting down or allocating to somewhere else due the number of days for horse racing being proposed!

5) Now that park and ride is being considered near the Carholme round-about of the Lincoln bypass, will this be completed together with horse racing project bearing this in mind?

6) If the horse racing development takes place after park and ride is completed, how are buses using Saxilby Road able to ferry people into the city centre of Lincoln? For the eastern part of the Carholme Road will be closed to traffic on horse racing days!

7) What road will be used as a relief road in getting traffic into the city centre on horse racing days near the western entrance to the Carholme Race Course? For Long Leys Road has been mentioned by various parties!

Will the jockeys race their horses as what the former point to point racing did on a circular circuit?

9) If this be so, will the circuit have a circular tarmac roadway running alongside to accommodate ambulances and emergency vehicles?

10) The common is protected by the 1985 Lincoln Commons Act, so what will happen to its biodiversity, wild life, and the horses who use the common for grazing?

11) Will dog owners be allowed to use the West Common?

12) Will the common have restricted access as there are many access points for people to use?

13) What parts of the common will be returfed and seeded to make it flat and safe?

14) Prestigious jockeys and VIPs have their own private aircraft in travelling to race meetings in the UK to avoid traffic congestion. Are there proposals for having an air strip for these aircraft to land?

15) Will there be helicopter pads for those having helicopters?

16) Are you supporting Lincoln City Council's proposal of putting aside £100,000 of tax payers money for legal fees, in order to change the 1985 Lincoln Commons Act which not only protects the West Common but the South Common and the Cowpaddle as well? Lincoln City Council's explantion has been that the Grandstand needs a change of use!

17) What will happen to the pathway and lamp posts from Long Leys Road gate to the West Parade gate if horse racing returns to the West Common?

18) What will happen to the copses, trees, and the pond area?

19) Will the use of the football pitches, tennis courts. bowling greens, and the cricket pitch, be restricted?

20) Will a private security firm be employed to secure the race course?

21) Will security fencing be built around the perimeter which most race courses have in the UK?

22) What is the total cost in bringing back horse racing to the West Common?

23) Will the horse racing rails be temporary or permanent?

24) How many buidings are you proposing and what types of building are required?

25) Are you proposing any more further development for horse racing.

26) If park and ride for near Carholme round-about and the costs being sought from grants is turned down, will you seek parking elsewhere for horse racing, say Burton Waters?

27) The Carholme Golf Club are vacating the three fairways on the northern part of the West Common due to flooding and excess of water. Will the flooding problem be rectified for horse racing?



the following questions supplement/enlarge upon the previous ones:

28)can a .PDF be made available of the plan, a visual will really help during all these talks (a new question!)

29)will there be any cost to the local council tax payer either before, during or after the plan (i.e. what bills will the city and county have to foot) Conversely will there be any savings? (Q16).

30)will the public (and loose dogs) still be able to roam and use the current access points when there are no race meetings, if not then where will the restrictions apply. Will there still be 'free' areas even when there are race meetings e.g. to walk dogs, play football or bowls and to cross the Common ( Q 11 and12)

31)Will a lit footpath traversing the Common still be available or improved e.g. also joining directly to the Carholme Road crossing (Q17)

32) who will pay for the collection and disosal of refuse and litter at the proposed racecourse?

33) who will pay for Policing of any racing event?

these are the previous 16 questions:


34) Has any approach been made so far to the British Horseracing Authority (BHA) regarding the return of racing to the Carholme, if so what response was received. If not when will such an approach be made as there is no point whatsoever in pursuing this project unless and until it has at least received provisional BHA approval.

35) Deregistration of land around the Grandstand - who will own it?

36) The Community Centre - what will happen to it?

37) What type of buildings will be built?

38) Where is the replacement land going to be?

39) If the racecourse is going to be built around the common, will it be enclosed permanently?

40) Public right to roam is permanent to the common. If question 5 infringes on this, what are the companies plans for it?

41) Horses have grazing rights on all the West Common as a right. How will racing impact on this right for all householders in Lincoln?

42) It has been speculated that eighteen two day race meetings need to take place; that is 90 days per year that the common will be used for racing - please confirm/refute this and give members a clear idea of the number of meetings which are expected to take place per year.

43) What will happen to the facilities currently on the common for horses - stables etc?

44) It is likely that Carholme Rd would need to be closed during racing meetings. Please give details of what alternative proposals for traffic are envisaged.

45) Please give members some detail regarding car parking arrangements during race meetings.

46) Will other commons users be denied access to the West Common during race meetings? Will they be required to pay for access?

47) Please discuss the possibility of changes to the 1985 Commons Act to enable the company to build etc..

48) What is the rationale for extending the racecourse around the common?

49) Given that there is already a racecourse at Market Rasen and a Point-to-Point at the Showground, how do you justify the need to use the West Common for horse-racing?

[tonyandcarol]

another question.where will the horses presently on the common go on racedays and the run up to these?

[john shipton]

Tony:

Plans are to pull down the current stables part being used by horse owners who graze their horses on the West Common while the rest are used by Carholme Golf Club.
New stables for 100 horses will replace this together with a new Veterinary Centre for horse racing.
There in no provision at the moment being said about stabling being built elsewhere for horses grazing on the common and neither will the horse racing fraternity say where the horses will go during race meetings. Hobblers Hole, nearby to Withams Park, was once used during previous horse racing days. But the land has not been kept and is unsuitable. It will need to have secure fencing also due to being right next door to Withams Park and roads. Lincoln City Council is responsible for this piece of land, but again, the council has not the money.
There are some councillors and officers who want the horses who graze on the common to be removed, for reasons or another (their opinions). The horse racing fraternity, if they were honest, don't want the horses to graze on the common either. The horse racing fraternity have been saying that most of the West Common needs to be flatterned, returfed, and seeded for flat horse racing to return. The whole of the West Common will be changed. Horse racing, by the way, will be a commercial venture.
The minimum of horse racing days to make flat horse racing viable is 16 sessions with each session having 3 days of horse racing per year, making a total of 48 days. This is without other days set aside for training, etc.
Quite a number of questions have been raised for Karl McCartey, his business associates, and his racing advisors from York Racing Course, and Beverley Race Course, to answer.
That is why Tuesday evening has been organised for them to do this. Karl McCartney can only make the 1st September.
This meeting is soley about bringing back horse racing for the West Common.

John.

[SteveW]

"This meeting is soley about bringing back horse racing for the West Common"

What a cracking idea..

[tonyandcarol]

thankyou john.your responce is appreciated.hopefully i will be able to attend.

[john shipton]

Steve:

I supported the horse fraternity in bringing back point to point horse racing for the former Carholme Race Course but the plans for point to point was not taken up by Lincoln City Council quick enough when they indicated their suppport for its return.
The Burton and Blankney Hunts were behind the proposals and plans. City Council failed to make a decision so the hunts took the details, etc, to those running the Lincolnshire Showground and West Lindsey Dictrict Council. This was agreed to and the showground has now an established race course for point to point. It will never return to Lincoln.
The main problem with flat horse racing for the West Common is the infrastructure which needs to be put into place first. Karl McCartney and business associates have not given any details about infrastructure, only plans for certain buildings, how horse racing will be run on a circular circuit, security measures, flattening the land on the northern part, closing Carholme Road for horse racing, the entrance coming from the Lincoln's only bypass, and the number of days for racing to be viable. It is a commercial venture with little thought behind it all.
The buzz word is "development" eventually for the West Common. The first thing Lincoln City Council wants to do is to change the 1985 Lincoln Commons Act which not only protects the West Common, its wild life, its recreational use, public access, but protects the South Common and the Cowpaddle as well. The two councils by the way, are wanting to put a road right across the Cowpaddle.
The South Common has been neglected for years. It was once a lively common with football and rugby pitches. It also had a cricket pitch and a golf course- all removed by City Council.
Only a few horses graze on the South Common due to its neglection. It is covered with wag wort which can kill horses, and with nettles and thistles. Areas the wooden fencing need replacing which surrounds this common.
City Council only does the bare minimum of maintenance and has reduced the budgets to maintain the commons over a period of time.
Lincoln has a major problem with traffic. Horse racing is a gambling sport so spectators won't be spending their cash in the city centre of Lincoln. Their money will be spent at the Carholme if horse racing goes ahead. Trade will suffer because of traffic congestion, and there will be a knock on affect.
By the way, jockeys and VIPs will need a landing strip on the West Common for they won't want to be held up with Lincoln's traffic problems.
This is why there are so many questions that need to be asked by Karl McCartney and company who want horse racing back for Lincoln.

[GDStimson]

Tony

Apologies for the short notice, but I believe the meeting regarding the race course is a Carhlme Community Forum meeting, and is therefore effectively "by invitation only", open to people representing various local organisations (WERA, LLRA, Police, Schools, University, shops, etc.).

It might be worth checking with Karen Lee (meeting organiser and CCF chair) first, as there's obviously a good case to be made for representing the riding school in this matter, given the nature of the subject and the location!

Regards
Gary
LLRA

[john shipton]

Gary and I attended the meeting with Karl McCartney organised by the Carholme Community Forum.
There was a total of 50 questions in all. Mr McCartney could only answer a few and most of his answers were possibilities and not certainties.
The reason for this is because the Master Plan which is being formulated by two groups which have been set up to bring back horse racing for the West Common, is not yet ready. When so, the Matster Plan will be presented to Lincoln City Council either at the end of September or the beginning of October this year.
The two groups are called The Lincoln Racehorse Trust and International Horse Racing Management.
The interest to bring back flat horse racing began in 2004. It has nothing to do with Point to Point racing which is now being run at the Lincolnshire Showground.
If and when horse racing is approved by City Council, the next step will be who will take on the council's lease.
Burton Waters is an option for park and ride but this is not the case with City Hall and County Hall. For both councils' agree that the land near the Carholme round about is their option and the decision has been approved to apply for a government grant for this purpose. A bid has been put in.
Regarding Long Leys Road being used as a relief road if horse racing is given the OK, there is a possiblity of the road being used by the buses from park and ride. Not sure if other traffic can be stopped though?
Mr McCartney will talk about the Master Plan at another meeting which he has agreed to do. However, he could not provide any details about this as yet.
He is aware that Lincoln City Council's amount of £100,000 put aside to change the 1985 Lincoln Commons Act. He said that he was not happy about this.
He mentioned 16 sessions of horse racing per year. In other words 16 days of horse racing. He could not tell CCF what days of the week this will be. On the horse racing days there will be no access to the common for those using it. Spectators will have to pay for admission on these days. Restricted access will apply to those who walk and run their dogs on the common on horse racing meetings. This will include training days and jockeys exercising their horses.
The horses which graze on the common will not be allowed to do so on racing days. The local riding riding school too will not be allowed as with horse riders.
Gary may like to add his comments and observations!

[tonyandcarol]

Thank you john.Sorry i could not attend in the end ,but as also pointed out it was by invitation only.
not only will horse owners be affected but the whole local community.the short cut across the common to work or town,the local pub or The Bowlfull on racedays will be a no go area obviously.Traffic conjestion will be a nightmare and those living next to the common will find a total change to their freedom of movement.unless you own a helicopter!. As a representive of the riding school i feel the whole thing to be totally unviable and not needed even though i enjoy horseracing and seeing horses.Some may think my views unfounded but as member of this site i also have freedom of speech.I wonder if racedays will coincide with the days that funerals will not be taking place further down the road in the future?

[robcrack]

Nightmare..............that only leaves 349 days of the year one can cut over the common to go to the pub / Bowlfull. I'm well against the idea of a racecourse now.

[john shipton]

Rob:

Mr McCartney could not say who will police those days for horse racing and the cost involved. It may have to involve the Lincolnshire Police Authority to supply policemen/women but then it will divert the police away from other and normal duties. It was mentioned about employing a security company. One thing positive regarding this, City Hall has said that it will not come from the tax payer as it is a private venture. But then who pays to police Lincoln City football matches!
Just remember that it only takes a road accident to bring Lincoln to a standstill. Horse racing will go beyond that, because things put in place, such as the Lincoln bypass, makes no sense concerning single lane and dual carriageways for traffic - cheap and nasty!

[robcrack]

There's more chance of Michael Jackson doing a live gig at the Grandstand than the race course opening again. Are the business leaders in Lincoln getting all worried? To date I haven't read any articles from the Lincoln Business Improvement Group expressing concern. Surely they are the authority on whether local businesses will be negatively affected by some dreamof a plan.

[john shipton]

Rob:

Lincoln BIG won't say much about horse racing.
Suggest that you have a word with David Mitchell at his shop on West Parade. He is involved with small businesses in Lincoln and has done a study of race courses in the UK some of which are considering closing down. There have been quite a number built since the Carholme closed in 1966.

[robcrack]

Shippo,
"Trade will suffer because of congestion, and there will be a knock on effect" is a quote from one of your posts. I'm sure if this was the case then Lincoln B.I.G. would take an interest. If what you mean is that the little shop on West Parade near The Avenue will lose trade then, as much as it is unfortunate, I don't think that would stop the development of the racecourse. Would the Lincolnshire Cooperative not be worried? Haven't heard their objections.
You have commented many times, quite correctly, about the lack of shops in the area.....so that's a lack of shops that will lose business. I'm at loss as to which local businesses will suffer.

[john shipton]

The project to bring back professional flat horse racing began 2004. This is not for point to point racing for the West Common. So that is 5 years ago. Two groups are involved on its return. Mr McCartney has spoken to several organisations about the proposals but is not specific on what will be built on common land.
Lincoln BIG and the Co-operative have not commented and will not until the Master Plan becomes public and presented to the city of Lincoln Council at the end of this month or sometime in October. Mr McCartney claims that he does not know what the Mater Plan entails. Confused? Then join the rest of those who he has been speaking to.
He would like park and ride to be built on Burton Waters. So does the two groups involved. But Burton Waters lies in the WLDC area and is beyond the Lincoln boundary. City and County councils' bid for a government grant of £1.4m is for the land (not common land) near the Carholme Road round about. That is their recommendation. There are other two further sites for park and ride for Lincoln as well. This will be sorted out later.
Now the park and ride near to the West Common is likely to be built first - public money. While the race horse venture is a private project funded by private money. Lincoln City Council is not involved to finance any of it.
When you look at the problem of traffic and keeping it flowing, Lincoln has a major problem. It is called traffic congestion. The Carholme Road on horse racing days will be closed - to traffic. The Saxilby Road running along the Grandstand will be closed too - allowing spectators, etc, to view racing events, etc.
Now, Mr McCartney claims that Highways at Lincolnshire County Council say that there will be not much of a problem regarding traffic in Lincoln on horse racing days. He is wrong, as Robert Parker who is our serving councillor at County Hall, has spoken to senior Highways officers. Mr McCartney is incorrect, as County Hall together with City Hall, say that Lincoln will be affected by traffic and this will affect all motorists using the centre of Lincoln, and elsewhere in the city.
Please talk to David Mithchell as he is not only represents small businesses, he serves on various council committees/forums which includes the police. He has been doing so for many years. He is in regular contact with the top brass at Police HQ and senior officers based at West Parade Police Station.
The roads in Lincoln were built for horse and cart. They were not built for vehicles which Lincoln has on its roads today.
There has been a lack of foresight in building Lincoln's A46 bypass whereby stretches of the road is single lane only.
If horse racing is approved without a proper infrastructure put into place first, then the consequences will come later. Long Leys Road will be one of many casualities whereby motorists using it now as a rat run into Lincoln, the road will be used as a relief road when horse race meetings take place. Then there of course will be a parking issue for those coming to race meetings who want free parking.